Proverbs 14:21
"He who despises his neighbor sins,
but blessed is he who is kind to the needy"
~Proverbs 14:21
My wife and I "discuss" what to do about the poor often,(she is more conservative than I am).
"So what do you think is the answer to the poor? More government programs? Spend more money? Tax the rich? Become a socialist state where everyone is poor?"-she said one day.
"I don't know what the answer is. I just know that the way things are isn't working. If it is impossible to live simply on minimum wage and there is no way to get health care if you get sick, something is wrong.", I responded.
"Minimum wage wasn't meant to be lived on. Its meant as an entry level wage." She countered.
"But sometimes that is the only jobs that are available. Sometimes there are no raises or overtime available."
"So what do you want the government to do?"
"I want them to step in and do something about wages, and be a conscience for those employers that won't treat their workers well."
Our arguments expose the fact that I'm not sure what the answer is. Because I don't know what the answer is, I've started with what the answer isn't. More of the same status quo is not the answer for the poor. Just another social program isn't the answer. But what is part of the answer is a change in attitudes toward the poor and economics in general.
The capitalistic ideas that the fiscal health of a business is more important than the lives of its workers, that there must always be a race for higher profits and better productivity in order to just stay in business, these are the ideas that I am speaking of. Its obvious that these principles are a surefire way to stay in business, but at what cost?
What good is a company that is proud of how it "provides wages for its workers" if those wages aren't enough to rent an apartment,pay for utilities and food? What some of these ideas do is they allow business to play that common trump card called "the bottom line" whenever wages are discussed. "Increasing wages at this juncture just isn't good for the bottom line." This statement could be true. A business could need to freeze wages for awhile, but ask yourself this, how many employers let the bottom line trump all moral principles? The bottom line does not always have to be so low-down. Preferring profit to people is despising your neighbor.
In Luke 10:25-37, Jesus tells the story of the good Samaritan. He told how many people passed by the man who was suffering, but only one reached out to him. Jesus explained that in order to love God, we must love our neighbor as ourselves. He also pointed out that our neighbor is the person that we encounter that is in need. In I John we read that not giving to help those in need is evidence that the love of God is not in you. "If anyone has material possessions and sees
So is this just another bash the rich post? I don't want it to be. But the bible does say have a lot to say about the rich and judgments
his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?"~I John 3:17
on those that do not treat their workers right. The important point I wanted to make is that the people that employ others have a social and biblical responsibility to do so in a way that helps their employees to do more than just barely survive.
The employees have a responsibility to work for their employers like they were working unto God, but that's a whole different post.
Thanks for reading,
AC
posted by AnonymousCog @ 6/27/2005
8 comments
8 Comments:
The funny thing is--I've never seen a business that had a marketable product that treated it's employees in a Christian manner fail. NEVER. Hyper-focus on "the bottom line" is just a hyper-focus on THIS YEAR's bottom line, and saving face this year and next, or until you can get your contract bought out and move on to the next institution you plan on screwing up.
Government does NOTHING well. I dont think they're even capable of doing much competently, much less WELL. It doesn't matter WHAT you give them tax money for, it's not going to make it to it's intended destination. It's like giving money to United Way, and 80% goes to overhead and "the machine" and maybe 20% actually goes to the actual cause. People solve problems WAY better than government--if there's a problem in your community--solve it in your community. It would be NICE if government could be a conscience, but government can't do anything competently. They've set up a system that makes dependants out of people getting help, and they're happy that way because it means they have power over people. We need to empower people to get out of the victim mentality. If you dont like your job... get a new one. It might be tough, it might require sacrifice and getting more schooling, but anything worth doing is worth sacrifice. It's like we're trying to prevent everyone in the world from ever experiencing pain or discomfort. We can't SAVE anyone. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Very thoughtful comments.
The victim mindset and the fatalistic attitude of the poor are a major hurdle. The guts to go to school, or work two jobs or make sacrifices can be really hard to work up, but its about the only way out, since as you so aptly put it, the government is incompetent.
I wonder sometimes if poverty is more of a problem of class and perception than it is a purely economic problem.
Thanks again for commenting.
AC
I think you are doing the right thing in trying to reason it through, rather than just accepting the typical right or left answers to the problem. It has been proved again and again that government interference does not do away with poverty but merely brings everyone down to a lower income. Tlg has stated some very important facts, the most important of which is that, if businesses run along Christian guidelines, they do not fail. That is something we need to build upon and to stop looking to government (which, after all, is not even allowed to be Christian these days) for solutions.
I think you might be right about that--poverty does appear to be a state of mind. Think about it--poverty is comparative. I'm sure someone barely ecking out an existance where they're not on the verge of starvation in a 3rd world country would give a LOT to be "poverty stricken" or even homeless in the US. You have to make an environment where it is prefferable to work and work hard for what you want, which I don't think we have now.
We "punish" people trying to actually get off of welfare by taking away from their check exactly what they make at their job, so they can't ever earn enough for a car to get a better job that isn't on a bus line, or better work clothes, or whatever. They end up losing money bcause they have to pay for travel expenses, lunches, and possibly childcare. Which would YOU rather do?? Work hard for a marginal amount of money, or not work for a marginal amount of money?? That's a no brainer.
And if you do have an OK job, or even a DECENT job, the government gets ya coming and going. Tax for this that and the other thing, then sales taxes and luxury taxes and "sin" taxes and gas taxes... Like they're somehow better able to spend my money than ME. I'm an expert at spending my money. When I wasn't losing QUITE so much in taxes I actually could afford to pay a teenager to come over my house once a week and help me clean up (long commute, school/work, no time for dishes). Now that's a teenager that's missing some pocket change to spend on something cool or necessary. I think we'd have less need for programs if they were letting people keep the money they earn, and then they wouldnt need as much money for programs. Like taxing social security pay outs and military pay. How stupid is that? This is money we collected on a tax, and we don't give you much of it to begin with, but we'd like to take some of it away in this wicked ponzi scheme we've got going. Sure they need money for roads and stuff... but not as much money as they're taking. It's like... no... we'll make you poor, then we'll keep you needing our handouts. Why not create opportunities. I think people should have to do SOMETHING for welfare. Maybe volunteer for something, or something. I'm sure there's a grade school that would appreciate a member of the community cutting out 150 turkeys for the thanksgiving concert. people should have opportunities for education and advancement--make it easier to get student loans/grants... you know, just generally make it easier for people to make their way, and not punish them for actually doing good. Someone was talking about an article about a little league team that basically got kicked out of the league (they cancled all their games) because they were "too good," and the other teams didn't want to play against them. Is it their fault they practiced 2.5 hrs a day willingly? They're supposed to get suspended and punished for that??
I'm just a little bit curious about a theme that seems to run through the posts which I've read:
You approach most of your views from the perspective that our business leaders, and wealthy individuals, ought to act towards the poor as if they (business leaders/wealthy) were Christians. Why?
Unless they've stated that they hold a faith in Christ, why should we expect them to act like Christians? I understand your desire to see them act like Christians, but if they aren't already counted among believers, then how can we expect them to live it?
I've had this conversation a multitude of times with my best friend, JT. He and I both agree that it's foolish to expect non-Christians to act like Christians.
So your solution actually lies in evangelism. If we could reach those business leaders, and the wealthy, with the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, then we might see some of the changes that you desire. But that's what we're supposed to be doing at every level of our society, isn't it?
M+,
I have also been considering the fact that many of the posts have appeared to have been aimed at the wealthy or employers. There have been scriptures involved, honest(grin).
I don't think its a waste of time to point out to people that they should act in line with Christian principles even if they aren't professed Christians. The principles of the bible are applicable to correcting a society, Christian or not.
You are right that the ultimate answer to society's ills lies in evangelism. I hardly think that means I shouldn't speak out against what I see is wrong in a society. Any way of bringing the ideas of the bible into the public forum, such as through blogs like this, creates interest in the things of God.
As far as evangelism goes, much of the world is tired of the Right Wing Republican Christianity that really comes across as uncaring and essentially social darwinism. Thats why I started this blog, to show that Christianity is more than a bunch of old white guys saying "if only you would work harder you wouldnt be poor."
I'm not against business owners and the wealthy personally. I have worked for business owners that I would take a bullet for, who treated me well, and expected me to work hard for them, which I did gladly.
Thanks for taking the time to read the posts and respond so well.
AC
AC,
I appreciate the response. I have a few additional ideas to toss your way now.
I can understand why your posts seem to be directed at wealthy individuals and business leaders. They are the ones who stand to have the greatest effect on a society when they use their wealth and influence for positive change. It is an honorable endeavor.
As for expecting people to act like Christians, even if they are not; it would be reasonable to expect people of all faiths to act in accordance with their shared points, those things which all religions can agree upon as "good deeds". But beyond that you're living in a fantasy world. In case you hadn't noticed, there are many liberals in this nation who would like to see the very concept of God stripped from our public lives. How can you reconcile your convictions that biblical principals can be used to correct a society when that society doesn't wish to be corrected? And especially not by Christian principles. It's difficult enough to get church goers to act like Christians, what hope do we have of convincing the unchurched that they ought to do better? I respect yout desire to see this, but there's no logic to it. And for someone who lists C.S. Lewis among their favorite authors, I would think that logic is important to your faith.
Yes, evangelism is the ultimate answer to our societal ills. We ought to be changing the world one person at a time. And evangelism IS (in a sense) speaking out against what's wrong with the world. Unless the people we're trying to reach know the truth about their sin and God's grace, they can never accept it. So continue to speak out against what you know to be wrong (as dictated by the scriptures, of course).
But remember, that is exactly what the world is sick and tired of. It's not just the "Right Wing Republican Christianity" that they reject. They reject the notions of Absolute Truth, the inspiration of the Bible, the falleness of mankind, sin, good & evil, Christ as divine and the only atoning acrifice for our sin, and a multitude of other doctrines which you and I embrace as Christians. Besides, I think that the whole "Right Wing Republican Christianity" that so many consider to be uncaring, social darwinism is merely a perception that our culture has been fed by people in our media, and other activists, who want everybody else to think that way.
None of the RWRC's I know are uncaring or social evolutionists. I know a few who are somewhat uninformed, perhaps a bit too "blunt" in their approach to issues. But I find the majority of them to be far more tolerant of others views than any of the liberals that I know.
Blogging is an excellent way of getting our ideology out into the rest of the world. That's why I started my blog. Also to show people that Christianity isn't some oppressive list of do's and don'ts. Eventually, if you read some of my essays, you'll realize that even as a RWRC I have a great deal of compassion and tolerance for others. I don't try to shove my faith down anyone's throat. I open dialogues in an attempt to understand the other persons point of view. That enables me to assess the best way to approach future conversations. I plant seeds in the hopes that God will reap a harvest.
I didn't think that you have anything personal against the wealthy or business owners. I can tell that it stems from a genuine concern for the poor. I've worked for both good and bad employers, and being the consumate capitalist that I am, I fully appreciate either of their means of running their business. After all, it is their own, who am I to tell them how they ought to run it. If I want to run a business, I'll start my own.
Thanks for responding to my comment. Conversations like these keep me sharp.
Dear M+, thanks again for writing, I'm enjoying the back and forth.
"None of the RWRC's I know are uncaring or social evolutionists. I know a few who are somewhat uninformed, perhaps a bit too "blunt" in their approach to issues. But I find the majority of them to be far more tolerant of others views than any of the liberals that I know."
"But beyond that you're living in a fantasy world. In case you hadn't noticed, there are many liberals in this nation who would like to see the very concept of God stripped from our public lives. How can you reconcile your convictions that biblical principals can be used to correct a society when that society doesn't wish to be corrected?
I’m not living in a fantasy world; I’m lashing out against the present system that you seem to be defending. I’m fantasizing about a world where the gap between the rich and poor is not so insurmountable. I’m trying to be the voice that points toward a better world; I’m trying to be one of the children in the street that yells, “Mommy, why does the emperor have no clothes?” I was a died-in-wool-straight-republican-ticket-voter, but I’ve had enough of defending a stark realism that seems to offer more judgment than hope, more excuses than answers.
In response to your ideas of what Liberals are and are not, aren't you judging the liberals the same way you say I am judging the wealthy? Your views of all liberals seems to based on prejudices, or assumptions. Liberals like Conservatives are represented in the media by only the most extremes. Middle of the road never makes for very good copy. Sure, someone has to be wrong, but no one is utterly and completely right either. Check out this quote by Abraham Lincoln:
“In great contests, each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time.”- Abraham Lincoln, memorandum dated September 30, 1862
God is not a Republican, and he is not a Democrat. Just like when Joshua met the captain of the hosts in the desert,
“Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." (Joshua 5:13-14)
Yes, I believe that much of the Republican’s moral platform is biblically based, but their bending over backward to help business with no real help for the poor is not. They excel in judgment, but fall short in mercy.
I do agree with the idea that we need to not burden small business with too much to bear. I agree they need to have the freedom to run their business without big brother sticking their nose in where it does not belong. But that still does not help with this trend toward more part time wages than full time. I don’t know if an answer exists for this, it may be an academic point at best, but when I have known people personally that are struggling financially, and all they can get are part time jobs, then its worth it bring this question up so people will in the least think about it
Thanks for bringing up C.S. Lewis, check out this post about a fully Christian Society: http://povertypoliticsandfaith.blogspot.com/2004/09/fully-christian-society.html
What’s funny about that post is that Lewis doesn’t really make anybody truly happy. He says a Christian society would appear as leftist or socialist, but he doesn’t pull any punches as far as the individual responsibility to work for your bread. So many years later, he is still the sharpest Christian thinker there is.
While you are at it, check out a series I did called "Christian Capitalism"-I think you might find we can bridge some gaps between us:
http://callcenterpurgatory.blogspot.com/2004/04/christian-capitalism-part-i.html
What amazes me is that this is the most peaceable discussion I have had on these subjects. Because you have went out of your way to be such a gracious person, I'm going to open up a little more than usual, I'll ask the same of you...
When I started this blog, I started a quest going through the bible looking up every reference to poverty. I want some real answers about the poor and the rich. At one time I espoused all of the pat answers of my mostly Republican Church, and the narrow view of the poor all the white middle-class Christians around me held (I am white lower-middle class). This view was something that was an unconscious mixture of pity, confusion and superiority (that’s my own subjective interpretation). On a purely practical level, one of the reasons I have not spoke more about personal responsibility is that I haven't really gotten to those scriptures yet.
But the other underlying problem that probably is unconsciously guiding my writing is my own work situation. I left a job at a Christian employer where I got raises and bonuses and was treated very well. I left that position to take a job that I thought would be a new career. I got fired because I was in over my head, and I turned out to be the wrong man for the job. It was amiable; I even got a glowing reference from someone who fired me. I ended up working at the call center. In the 5 years I have been here, there has been one performance review (I have asked repeatedly), one raise, and no hope. There has been lots of ass-chewing and shouting, but only one write-up. There are no real answers and no real future. I have fought with depression at times. I have a real plan to leave and hopefully will be out very soon, I believe its God’s will this time, but the proof is in the pudding. Of course, my experience with my present employer colors my posts more than I wish. Nevertheless, since I have known what a good employer is, I don't think I am beyond clear thinking, just a little more negative, and sometimes more pessimistic than I should be.
There's my openness and sharing for the day. Now it's your turn. Why do you have such a keen interest in my little, rarely updated, quasi-Christian-socialist blog? Sure, it’s great to stay sharp, and you are a great example of "iron sharpening iron". That said, I suspect there is more to your well-thought-out and extremely complete responses than meets the eye. I suspect you have your own issues in repeatedly posting so many responses.
Thanks again,
Your friend,
AC
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